So what I've noticed is that Feminism has taken on kind of a new meaning in today's society. Women are getting pay significantly closer to that of a man's. More job opportunities are available in executive level positions for women. I'm seeing more female entrepreneurs. More self-sufficiency, more strength, more assertiveness, and more confidence from women. This shows up in a lot of different ways our world. And this is great. But, for some reason, this doesn't seem to overlap into our romantic lives... And I think I know why.
I know women who run board meetings, pitch ideas, sell products, and put themselves out there in the most high-pressure ways and handle rejection gracefully... almost strategically, even when the answer is 'no'. But why is it then, that when it comes to dating, that specific confidence that shines through in professional settings does not necessarily transfer? Is it our own self-fulfilling prophecy? Why is it that when a man comes up to a woman in a bar, it is considered courtship; but when a woman approaches a man in a bar, it is considered desperate? Is there a glass ceiling to dating?
(Tell me I don't sound like Carrie Bradshaw right now! I dare you! Except I'm taller. And brunette. And not NEARLY as thin... And well, I sure as hell couldn't pull off wearing a tutu down the busy, clustered streets of Chicago... Ok. So I'm still me.)
Anyway, my point is this... From personal experience. I am not the shyest of individuals. I am outgoing and friendly and I give credit where credit is due when I go out; and, of course I have an incessant habit of talking smack as well. (My logic is: Yes, I'm being immature and maybe bitchy. And it's funny. And honestly, I'm sure there's someone else sitting one or two seats behind me who's talking smack about me and the fact that I just did the Running Man in the middle of a bar where no one's dancing and who do I think I am?!) But, again, I digress---I am the type who, after a few drinks (because really, no one's that carefree!), would typically have zero qualms about striking up conversation with a guy I thought was cute. However, in the past, when I've attempted this... and in the classiest of manners, might I add... I have gotten one of two reactions:
1. He looks at me like fresh meat. The assumption exists that because I started conversation with him, I am obliterated (read: completely wasted) and am his new conquest for the evening... Which he thinks is 'in the bag' and is sorely disappointed/insulted when I don't make-out with him in the midst of a packed bar... Then he gets disgruntled, decides I'm just 'not worth it anymore', and moves on to the next girl grinding with her girlfriends right behind him. (Not that there's anything wrong with grinding with your girlfriends... Really, we all do it. Especially when Beyonce comes on. And maybe we bust out the moves from the video... Whatever. That's normal...)
or
2. I get the 'Oh my God this girl must really be pathetic if she's coming up to me' interaction. Conversation lasts about 5 minutes tops. Consists of small talk (i.e. where you're from, what you do, and ummm... that's about it...) Then you smile awkwardly at each other, turn to your friends, attempt to move on, and your groove is all out of whack for the next few minutes until you recoup. On one hand, this interaction could be polite, casual, but simply not going anywhere. And that's totally fine. Or it could be excruciating because the guy you happened to start conversation with thinks he's Brad Pitt and acts way too snobby considering he isn't *gasp* said blonde, beautiful actor. Then you think to yourself, "This is what guys deal with ALL the time. I don't get it. If they've experienced it, then why wouldn't they be flattered that a woman came up to them and at least be polite?"
And that's where I got stuck. See, sometimes when I've started conversation at a bar, it's gone well. Either he was interested in me and responded in a way that I felt good about my desire to be assertive, or he spoke to me before I even got the chance to speak to him which also left me feeling good... especially since I didn't have to risk my ego. However, the times that I have experienced one or both of the previously mentioned reactions left me completely disgruntled, confused, and somewhat put-off. So then I wondered... What is it about a girl coming up to a guy that comes across as desperate?
Is it that society has taught us that men are the pursuers? Is it years and years of male-to-female courtship that's led us to the point where a confident, assertive woman is judged if she goes after what she wants? And, since we've made so much headway in progressing in our professional lives, how do we shift that same attitude change into our personal lives?
So here's what I've elected to do... And I've been applying this to as many instances as I can when I go out. I change the way I interact with men even when they come up to me. So, when a guy offers to buy me a drink, I say yes (assuming I want to talk to him). That's Round I. Then let's say that he's sticking around for conversation, laughs, and overall ridiculousness. That's when I ask him if I can buy him a drink. No, I'm not a feminist persay. But I like an even playing field; especially in today's world, and especially in the bar scene. I like the leverage to be able to cut off the conversation when I want, or take it further if I want. Nine times out of 10 when I offer to get his drink (Round II), he's going to argue. And if he's really stuck on buying me the second drink, that's fine. I'm not against courtship. And I love being treated like a lady. But just the fact that I offered gives him an idea that we are equals... a team, if you will. And it also let's him know that I want him around. I wouldn't offer to buy his next drink if I wanted him to bug off, right? Right. It changes the dynamic of the conversation.
And what I've found...
I'm taken more seriously. Not in the I-never-smile-because-I-suck-at-life kind of way. But in the way that the guys who are only out to 'get some' that night leave me alone because they don't see me as an option. SIDENOTE: A friend of mine put it in an interesting way. He explained that because I come off as confident, sometimes guys won't approach me because they're intimidated. Because they will feel, in a sense, insignificant. That it wouldn't matter to me one way or another if they existed in my life. Now, this is not a good trait of mine and I have to work on it. But it's better than being the target of every polyester-wearing, sleaze ball's affections. BACK TO MY POINT: Guys who are genuinely interested in me stick around for conversation. And, chances are, they are going to be equally as confident as me or even more for having the guts to come chat.
The guys who I am not interested in but were respectful in their attempt get an equally pleasant response. Usually that consists of a minute or two of small talk, a drink offer on their part, my saying something like "No thanks! I'm good. But it was really nice meeting you!" And they usually get the point. It's nice, it's appropriate, and it's acknowledging them as a person and not some flea you're trying to shoo away. (No one should be treated that way. That is... unless you're wearing a shiny polyester shirt with flames on it, acid-washed jeans, and Keds. Ok ok. You still get a polite "No, thanks", but if you're coming up to me, expect some 'constructive criticism'...)
So, lesson to the ladies: Be stern when you need to be. That is, when someone is being inappropriate, rude, or disrespectful. Unnecessary bitchiness will discredit you. And no, you're not Angelina. So don't act like you are. Just like he wasn't Brad Pitt. (And not even Brad is allowed to act like a jerk. So there! *humph*) And don't be afraid to let that professional confidence peek its head into your personal life. The worst that will happen is you'll get rejected. And it has happened to all of us many, many times before in work or in play. But you never know who you'll impress by a simple smile and a 'Hello.' And you'll never know how good it feels to see this specific hottie's eyes light up because you spoke to him. Now THAT'S reassurance!
Men: Props to you. You have guts, cojones, for doing this for ages... But be flattered when a woman does come up to you. Because it's so rare, it probably takes a bit more "Go get 'em, Tiger" for a woman to approach than a man. But I want to open this question up to you...
How would you feel about a woman approaching you? Would she come off as desperate? If so, why? Or would it be refreshing, for a change, to be the pursuee rather than the pursuer? Enlighten me!
I think with the new year and the theme of 'Changes' that's upon us, it's a good time to think about things that we want to see changed in our personal or romantic lives when so often we only focus on our professional lives. Men and women alike. If men are more open to women being assertive then women will be encouraged to be that way. And yes, there will be exceptions. And this doesn't mean that gentlemanly courtship is ruled out altogether. (Opening doors for women should never go out of style!) It just means that it's time for men to be allowed to enjoy the flattery of being approached. So, glass can be broken, and walls can be moved. Let's get the blueprints in order and get crackin'.
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Love it! There must be something about we women analyzing and reinventing dating in the air...I swear this has been the topic all week for me with many other girls. I've also had SEVERAL conversations in the last week about how strong women intimidate men and that messes up their dating prowess as well...thoughts?
ReplyDeleteLove you girl and welcome to the blogspot world!!! xoxo
Hello, my lovely! I'm so glad you read! And, ya' know what made me think about this is that practically ALL of my girlfriends (including myself... I'm my own friend too, right? Ok. Kind of weird. But whatever...) are now single. And we're at the point where we're enjoying being single, and we're happy. But we are thinking about dating and that special someone hoping that eventually (or sometime soon) he shows up.
ReplyDeleteAnd with all this new singledom, I got to thinking about how people meet. Obviously going out to bars is a major contributor. Online dating is becoming an equally huge contributor. Being set up plays a role... And then what happens when all those mediums are disappointing? We get frustrated and give up. And that's SUPPOSED to be when the best things happen. BUT---
Then I started thinking about why we can't take a little bit more control over our dating lives and what's holding us back. And what I came up with is that we automatically take on this submissive, you-have-to-come-find-me type of attitude that, in reality, could preclude something (or someone) really great from entering your life. Even if it's a simple smile and "hello". That confidence radiates through a room. It lets people know you're not stuck-up and bitchy, but at the same time you command respect.
Not that I'm going out on the prowl to pick up guys. But I also don't want to be stifled if I feel inspired to start a conversation with someone. I don't want the pretenses that go along with it. Sometimes things really are better taken at face value.
IN ADDITION TO THAT... Caroline, I loved your blog. And I think it'd be great for anyone reading this to get a woman's perspective different than mine. With that said... Readers, please check out Caroline's blog and hear her wisdom. Go to http://carolinerothstein.blogspot.com/2007/04/hes-just-not-that-into-you.html and enjoy!
C, xoxo always.
Me.
A-Women. And thank you for the blog plug!
ReplyDeleteSo...some girls in my book club and I decided to go speed dating - mostly as a joke - mostly out of TOTAL curiosity...and also because I've decided EVERYONE should speed date at least once in their life cause it's f-ing hilarious! Anyhow...so this dude and I both said yes to each other. He texted me totally chauvinistic lame texts and I wrote back mature, intellectual responses. I never heard from him again. Typical...right?
Here's what I think...
ReplyDeleteI think it should be a level playing field. First of all, there's a lot of pressure on a guy when it comes to courting to begin with. We have to pay to play, take women out, show them a good time as to why we're an ideal guy for them only to wonder if she's really interested in us to being with. Yea, she may be interested in us in some way by going out to dinner, a movie, a bar or whatever, but for the most part, guys are the ones who have to put it all on the line to even get women to do these things with us in order to get to know them better. I personally find it refreshing when a woman hits on me, whether I'm interested or not. Why? Because it doesn't happen. We've been socialized to believe that women shouldn't do these things because it seems "less feminine". B.S. and I'll scream that from the mountaintops. When a woman is willing to buy me a drink, dinner, or tea (because I don't do coffee) that says alot about her personal character. It lets me know that she wants to be treated as an equal as opposed to someone that wants to be cared for which makes me become even more attracted to her. I wish that more women subscribed to the mindset of doing things equally. Not only because it takes the pressure off of the man, but because I think she'll find some sense of satisfaction in her own life. By taking initiative, she will be able to see that she is in control of her dating destiny just as much as a man is when he approaches a woman. To me, that could be quite a fulfilling experience because she can see how her efforts produced some results instead of waiting for those results to come (which might not happen) when she is just waiting to be approached by a man. Again, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. However, I still think that women should take a shot because you don't know what could happen. I'm just sayin'....
Also, dear editor, I would like to know your opinions regarding male/female friendships. Can men and women be strictly friends? Do these relationships have the possibility to develop into something more, or does it stay strictly on a friend level during the course of the relationship? And if it does develop into something more, who do you think is the first person to raise their hand about what they want; men or women? I am curious to know your opinions about this because I have been having several conversations about with this friends that are male and female alike. And trust me, there will be a phone conversation about this in greater detail at a later date. Get excited. I know I am :)
Holla.
The thought of having a woman take the lead in something that men have been practicing and at times failing badly at is refreshing. I no way would I feel that a woman was being desperate in approaching. Being flattered would be the first thought though along with being impressed with her confidence. She is telling me that she's commanding in what she desires, selective in what she wants, and accepts the outcome of her choices, rejection or being embraced. Now I'm sure you have heard this before but when I go out to shake my groove thing, I'm not looking for the future wife. However I do keep my eyes open. I would be nice once to take a day off though, knowing that you don't have to make the advance to a woman. If you want something, you go get it. Relationships are not for the timid. A relationship can leave the deepest of bruises and give the highest of highs! A guy wants to feel desired just as much as a female, we just don't show it as well. If woman made more advances at men at least everyone would be able to see everyone's cards. i say get everything out in the open. Keep it Real. Ray Antonio
ReplyDeleteI think your idea on how to handle the situation is great Becky. I'd like to add my 2 cents in as well.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, I've seen and said it to death that bars are a terrible place to meet people. Most of my rationale is based on my experiences and the experiences of men and women I've known.
Women have complained to me how it seems every guy in the bar or club simply screams it out in many ways that he only wants to get laid. That if said girl isn't showing him that she's going to go home with him (or call him later for a bootycall when the girlfriends aren't there to stop her) then he's moving on. They complain how it seems 90% of the men who approach them are douchebags and wonder where all the more "normal" guys are.
From a guy's perspective, they go to bars and either are the more normal types who fear rejection and/or see women out and can't find real opportunity. Lord knows when I've been at bars for birthday parties and other events, I watch what the women do. I've seen them come in as a tight-knit group, they never go anywhere alone, most of them never make eye contact with anyone in the room outside of the group, and sometimes you have one or two friends in that group who repels men from trying to approach anyone in said group.
A playa or douchebag is going to approach anyway, mostly because he could care less if he's rejected or not. He only sees every female in the room as warm flesh for enjoyment, not as in women he might want to know and possibly date. A more normal guy is thinking more "is this girl someone I'd want to date and get to know?" Men are not these pillars of strength that women are led to believe. We hurt, we bleed, we hate to be rejected when it's a girl we find attractive.
We fear as well. Anyone who wants to believe a "real man" is one who doesn't fear rejection and would approach a group even if it meant the group bashing him right there might want to look deeper and wonder how many of those "courageous males" ended up being the very same males you're complaining about down the road. To me, if he worries you'll reject him, then it means he cares about what you think.
I think one big factor in dating that many women have lost is the art of seduction. You're a very open and sociable girl Becky, but think about how many women go out wanting to meet men, but never make eye contact with any men? How many women want to meet men, but never go out anywhere that they could possibly meet new guys? Or they keep going to the usual haunts of douchebags and thus keep coming up short?
I remember one woman at my work telling in conversation about this guy she sees on the bus every day and thinks he's so attractive. She was wondering when he's going to approach her. I asked her if she threw any clear signals to him and she said no. She felt a real man would just take the risk and not wait for an opening. That a real man doesn't need a signal of interest from a woman.
I then asked her how many times has she been out and didn't want to meet men, but yet guys just keep coming up to her and annoying her. I then asked her why this guy should approach her cold if she's not handed him one viable reason. She thought I was full of it...but months later and she's still single and that guy never bothered anything with her.
I think most men are not looking for women to take on the role of pursuit, but they are looking more for women to show them real interest in some way. Give them the green light to come over and talk. Eye contact and a smile.
I also think that if women out on the prowl keep meeting douches and men on the prowl keep meeting scared sallys or attention whores, then it's time to change it up. Check out new events and happenings as opposed to the typical spots.
D-Jam,
ReplyDeleteI agree with 99.9% of what you said about us needing to put signals out there. But often times those signals are also perceived as 'desperate'. A simple smile and hello is, in my opinion, an awesome way to welcome coversation, but there is the side that men assume a smile and a hello means he's 'in there like swimwear'. (Yes, I just said that.) Anyway, it never ceases to amaze me how even the simplest of things can be so misunderstood.
The part about your friend and the guy at the bus stop. Here's the thing... Women are so used to men approaching that, at least for me, if a guy doesn't approach me even after crossing paths with each other a dozen times, it means he's not interested. And why would I throw signals out there to a guy that's not interested? It goes both ways. Both sides are scared of rejection. Unfortunately, living passively isn't going to get us anywhere...
On top of that, I had a very interesting conversation with my boss the other day. (Who I love, by the way. He seriously rocks. Great guy.) But he also noticed that I may have been putting it out there more that I'm single and dating, etc... He basically said that I was coming off as "on the prowl" or something like that. And, while my initial reaction was to be like "What? That's so rude! No I'm not!" After really considering what he said, I realized that... No, I'm not desperate. I'm not putting myself out there in that way. But, the fact of the matter is, I am single. And I don't want to be single forever. And I'm perfectly happy on my own but it would be nice to have a special someone in my life. And if that takes six months or five years, that's fine. I'm not going to settle, but at the same time, what is it that I do to put it out there in a way that's perceived as 'on the prowl'?
I explained to him that men and women work differently. (And I do, in all honesty, think my boss works differently than many men I know too.) He LOVES his job. He doesn't necessarily view getting married and having children as a priority. If it happens, cool. But his first LOVE is his work. That is his equivalent of 'a relationship'. And I highly respect him for it. For me? That just wouldn't work.
So what I explained to him was that men and women, generally, work differently. Men, as a whole (Yes there are exceptions! Don't get your panties in a bunch!) view whether they're successful or not based on their financial and professional success... their ability to afford a lifestyle they want AND to be able to take care of their special someone. Women, as a whole, (Yes, there are exceptions. And again... Panties. Bunch. Stop it.) gage their success in life based on their ability to succeed in a relationship, make people happy, fulfill obligations, nurture. It's our nature. So, two different definitions of success. So, while my boss is feeling fulfilled in his life because he has his 'love', I'm not necessarily feeling that way because I haven't found my 'love'.
Let me again emphasize that I am not unhappy, miserable, or unable to function because I'm single. I'm simply saying that women and men work differently. And it's ok for women to want to find their Mr. Right. It's natural. But that doesn't mean we're desperate or pathetic. And maybe if views and attitudes changed, we would be more willing to 'put ourselves out there' in the way that your friend would feel good about starting conversation with Mr. Bus Stop Guy and not think twice about it.